24.11.2005, 16:20

I have heard many times that when running on gas, the engine wears out faster, however, no one could give me worthwhile arguments. Based on official sources, there are many advantages to working on gas.

Advantages:
- reduction in the cost of a kilometer run;
- an increase in the total mileage at full refueling;
- increase in engine resource;
- increased terms of replacement of engine oil;
- reduction of engine noise;
- reduction of the amount of harmful emissions in the exhaust gases.
Disadvantages:
- decrease in payload;
- decrease in useful volume;
- decrease in maximum engine power;
- an increase in the thermal load on the engine;
- an increase in the cost of service;
- increasing the risk of exploitation.

24.11.2005, 16:36

Decrease in max speed, increase in acceleration time, engine sluggishness, burnout of valves, increase in fuel consumption

24.11.2005, 16:38

What do you want to hear?

Added:
Valves will burn out only in greedy ones.

24.11.2005, 16:41

Regarding the valves, what is the reason for their burnout?

Added:

I want to hear well-founded arguments against gas related to engine wear.

24.11.2005, 16:46

stegmatix The main thing is that the gas equipment is supplied with high quality and it was made with high quality itself !!! And of course, not pouring gas from the cylinder, as some craftsmen do, And in all other respects I can not say any minuses ...

24.11.2005, 16:51

Valve burnout is associated with the economy of the owner trying to adjust the gas flow, like on gasoline. (in theory, gas consumption is 10-20% more)

I have not heard about engine wear. Quite the opposite: there is no detonation on gas and the gas does not wash oil from the cylinder walls.

Of the minuses: this is additional weight, the need frequent replacement filter and from time to time it is necessary to drain the condensate in the reducer (once a month, it takes 3 min.)
Oh, yes, you still need to start on gasoline

24.11.2005, 17:17

Gas has a lower calorific value compared to gasoline, that is, when the same amount is burned, less heat is generated, hence the inevitable loss of power when running on gas.
At the same time, the rate of combustion of gas is slower than that of gasoline, and the gas burns out at the moment the exhaust gases are discharged, when the exhaust valves are open and they are most vulnerable, since they must cool when in contact with the seat. early ignition(3-5 degrees), and constant monitoring of the valve clearances (it is better to do it along the upper tolerance limit).
In general, gas has much more pluses than minuses, everything has already been said above. And burnout of valves, the smell of gas in the cabin, the danger of an explosion - all these are rather myths!

24.11.2005, 18:11

Senya, greedy = P
=8))

24.11.2005, 19:06

in fact, the calorific value of gas is greater than that of gasoline, and the octane number of cis is about 100 ... the decrease in power is due to a lower filling factor of the cylinders (cis - by 3-4%) and this is subjective - for me personally, everything is ok - it suits completely , the dynamics are almost like on gasoline (vw jetta2)

8 years on gas - and nothing

about 10-20% it all depends on the settings, but if you compare fuel prices, the question of efficiency disappears by itself

24.11.2005, 19:15

Calorific value in gaseous state, MJ / m3:
propane-85
butane-111
gasoline-213

"The calorific value of gas is slightly higher than that of gasoline. However, with an increase in the amount of air supplied to the engine, the calorific value decreases slightly.

The molecular weight of LPG is less than that of gasoline, and this degrades engine performance. Since liquefied gas enters the engine in a gaseous state, compared to gasoline, the filling of the cylinders with it decreases (the combustion rate of the gas-air mixture is lower) at a high speed crankshaft engine. As the engine speed decreases, less gas is supplied to the engine. Thus, when the engine is running on gas, its power is reduced. And this is one of the disadvantages of a gas cylinder engine. If the power of the engine running on gasoline is taken as 100%, then the power of the engine running on gas will be approximately equal to 90%, which leads to a decrease in maximum speed by about 4%.

The decrease in engine power occurs due to the lower heat of combustion than gasoline. And as a result, there is an incomplete filling of the engine cylinders with a gas-air mixture. However, by early installation of the ignition timing to TDC by 3 - 5 °, this disadvantage is partially eliminated. Under operating conditions, there is no big difference when driving a car on gas or petrol. "(C)

Added:
http://brc.narod.ru/zolot/zolot.html#chapter_2- read about gas

24.11.2005, 19:21

tarland, do you want to torture us here with your lectures ??? Would I like to pump you on my jet? And see if you notice the loss of power, or not?

Added:

QUOTE(tarland, 24-11-05 @ 19:15)

(with)

Every year the number of motorists who prefer gas fuel is constantly growing. However, the question of the possible is still accompanied by many stereotypes. First of all, this is due to both ignorance of the characteristics of the engine running on gas, and the main advantages of using gas fuel.

Many people who are accustomed to gasoline and diesel fuel tend to think of gas as the cause possible malfunctions in the car. But before making any judgments, let's consider the issues related to the use of gas, and try to understand them.

So what are the main concerns of motorists?

1. Installation of equipment on the car

Often, car enthusiasts contemplating the possibility of switching to gas fuel worry about problems associated with them, such as interference with the vehicle's life support systems. But you should not worry about this, since this process does not require a constructive alteration of the engine. It can be compared to installing additional equipment, such as an alarm.

In other words, the installers do not interfere with the engine. The equipment is not implemented, but only supplements the existing mechanism. After installing LPG, the car can run on both gas and gasoline. If you run out of gas fuel, you can safely drive to the gas station on gasoline. The main thing is to make sure that both tanks are not empty at the same time.

2. Influence on engine life

Does running on gas harm the engine? No, it doesn't. In most cases, those who believe that gas fuel is harmful to the engine cannot even explain what this point of view is related to. It hurts, that's all. But let's turn to the opinion of the engine experts. internal combustion... It turns out that gas fuel not only does not spoil the engine, but on the contrary - has a positive effect on it. As a result of long-term observations, it was revealed that the use of gas increases the engine resource, significantly extending it. This is due to the following reasons:

Softer combustion characteristics. Gas is less corrosive than gasoline. Therefore, the engine runs smoother, more elastic, it is less susceptible to shock loads with increasing power. Gas mixes better with air, being evenly distributed throughout the cylinder.
All this directly affects the increase in the service life of the cylinder-piston group.
Engine oil retains its characteristics longer. Getting into the engine cylinders in a vaporous state, the gas does not dilute the oil and does not mix with it, unlike gasoline. Accordingly, it stays clean longer and lasts for a longer period.
High octane number. The octane number, which for the gas mixture is 103-110, practically excludes the detonation of the engine, i.e. the likelihood of fuel igniting when over-compressed. For comparison, the octane number of gasoline ranges from 84 to 100.
The gas does not contain heavy impurities. It contains neither sulfur, nor lead, nor paraffin, which are present in large quantities in gasoline. This means that the service life of the catalyst and elements of the combustion chamber is extended. In addition, it is confirmed that the gas-fired engine is free of carbon deposits and deposits.

3. Condition of valves and intake manifold

Quite often there is an opinion that the use of gas leads to burnout of valves, and also causes back popping. Where do these rumors come from? Mainly from ignorance and insufficient awareness of the combustion process of the air-fuel mixture. The most amazing thing is that sometimes you can hear such things from people whose work is closely related to cars, be it repairs or diagnostics. Let's figure it out.

Ideally, the ratio of fuel to air in the fuel mixture should be at a certain level, namely 1 to 14.7. Deviations from this indicator can cause problems. Rich mix, oversaturated with fuel, leads to excessive fuel consumption and deposits of carbon deposits in the cylinders. But the lean mixture just affects the state of the valves. There is less fuel, so the combustion temperature rises and the engine overheats. This is what causes the valves to burn out. Also, the result of a poor fuel mixture is often reverse pops, i.e. spontaneous combustion of fuel in the intake manifold of the car.

But pay attention: it does not matter what kind of fuel is used - gas or petrol. Therefore, cars running on gasoline are not insured against burning out valves and back pops. Gas by itself does not contribute to these problems, but a lean air / fuel mixture does. Its reasons can be very different: from inaccurate equipment settings to malfunctions in the ignition system and the fuel system. One thing is indisputable: the correct and precise setting of the equipment is an important aspect in the stability, reliability and durability of a car running on gas.

And in conclusion, I would like to reassure all those who are thinking about converting their car to gas fuel once again. Installing LPG equipment does not in any way change the design of your car, but becomes its addition. In addition to the gasoline tank, you get a second one - gas. In addition, switching to gas will not only not spoil the engine of the car, but will also increase its resource and improve many characteristics. Therefore, we can safely say that gas is both safe and.

With the constantly rising price of gasoline and diesel fuel, it has become popular to equip a car with gas equipment. But the owner of the car does not always understand how useful and economically feasible such re-equipment will be.
It is believed that a gas-powered car is half the cost in operation, produces less harmful emissions, does not pollute the oil and increases the engine's service life. But there is also an opposite opinion that due to the fact that the gas has a high octane number, parts that are not designed for such a high temperature do not last long and fail faster. And in frosty weather, the car will simply not start on gas.

Let's take a look at the most popular myths about the use of gas equipment in cars (LPG).

MYTH 1: A car can break down.
This is partly true. But the point here is not in the gas equipment itself, but in the peculiarities of its installation. For installation, you will need to drill additional holes in the bottom of the car for fasteners, add additional elements to the structure, and pull the wiring. What can happen after such interventions in the body structure of your car is unknown. Sometimes, after such an intervention, the body is quickly eaten by corrosion.
Much depends on the qualifications of the specialists who do the installation gas equipment... It is recommended to choose service stations where HBO is installed more than once every hundred years, but have good experience in this. After installation, it is recommended to treat all new holes in the body and new parts with grease to avoid corrosion.
With high-quality installation, HBO will not be able to spoil your car.

MYTH 2: LPG reduces the engine life by almost half.

This is often the main reason why motorists refuse to switch to gas. Many drivers think that LPG dries out the engine, given its high octane number, overheats the body, and parts are destroyed as a result. On the one hand, it makes sense. But, on the other hand, such a statement is relevant for outdated Soviet cars, on which, as a rule, HBO of the first structures was installed. For modern gas equipment and engines, this is no longer relevant.
Experts consider it nonsense that gas reduces engine life. On the contrary, high temperature burns out burnt, removes detonation, the engine runs more easily and quieter. - But there are some but ... for example, the engine of the car should always be kept in good technical condition... In a car with LPG, malfunctions of the ignition system will appear earlier. The car needs regular Maintenance and replacement of major consumables: air filter, spark plugs and more. Careless maintenance and unnecessary savings on consumables will eventually damage the fuel system.

MYTH 3: Reduces engine speed and power.

For those who like to drive fast, this is an important reason. Indeed, the first generation of LPG with distributed injection significantly limited engine power. Modern installations do not suffer from this. The maximum reduction in engine power when switching to gas is only 5%. But this is the case if you refuel with perfectly clean fuel.
If only some cars are whimsical to gasoline, then absolutely everyone is susceptible to low-quality gas. On bad gas, the car can simply stall in the middle of the road. Therefore, there should always be gas in the tank, just in case. Automation itself will switch to gasoline if the system decides that the engine cannot operate on such gas.

MYTH 4: The car becomes explosive.

This myth appeared justifiably, because gas is really explosive and this happens quite often. But this is true, mostly for household gas. The gas cylinder for cars is equipped with reliable shut-off valves with safety valves and is able to withstand even the most severe shock.
If the main pipes, through which the gas is supplied to the engine, are damaged or broken, the gas leak is automatically stopped. The gas cylinder has a wall thickness of about 4 mm and is installed in the trunk. And, for comparison, gasoline fuel tank, which is located mainly under passenger seat, can be easily pierced even with a nail.
Although, of course, you need to be careful and you smelled by the smell that a gas leak has occurred, you need to immediately stop, close the valve and continue driving on gasoline. Smoking, of course, with the smell of gas is also not recommended.

MYTH 5: Fuel consumption increases

This is true. Even the most modern LPG equipment increases fuel consumption by 15-30%. And then the question arises: what to do if your car already consumes about 25 liters of gasoline in the city? When switching to gas equipment, the consumption will increase to 35-40. Such figures can, of course, scare, but even with such an increase in consumption, driving on gas will be more profitable, because it always costs half as much as gasoline. Another thing is that the gas reserves will not last long. And then it becomes necessary to install a high-capacity cylinder, which can take up the entire trunk.

Some information about LPG equipment.

HBO 1st generation

The first gas equipment systems were similar in principle to earlier carburetors. Fuel was supplied to the engine using a mechanical metering device. These systems did not use electronics. As a result, the car became whimsical to the quality of gas, perceived only gas the highest quality, the engine quickly failed. And most importantly, the first generation gas installations were not safe and often exploded and, often, with victims. These early systems gave rise to the impression that driving on gas was dangerous.

HBO 2nd generation

The second generation resembled a central fuel injection system. The process of metered gas supply to the engine was carried out using electronically controlled injectors. Oxygen supply sensors were also used. Thanks to this, the system was able to meter fuel more accurately. Second-generation LPG systems have become safer for both passengers and the engine. If the proportion of the gas-air mixture is violated, the electronics instantly turns off the gas supply.

HBO 3rd generation

Third generation systems in our country are perhaps the most widespread. Unlike previous generations, the number of injectors in them corresponds to the number of cylinders in the engine, therefore the fuel mixture is created best quality... As a result, throttle response has improved, and cars have become more economical. And, most importantly, the third generation HBO has become even safer in operation.

HBO 4th generation

The latest version of gas installations is already fully electronically controlled. Electromagnetic injectors are installed for each of the cylinders, which supply fuel to the engine with the highest precision. For the first time, such systems allowed inventors to be told that gas cars can be as powerful and agile as gasoline cars.

By the way, there are already countries where car owners are encouraged to switch to gas, by lowering taxes for them when passing a vehicle inspection, giving loans for the installation of gas equipment, etc.

Gas is the most realistic alternative to gasoline and diesel. This is primarily about liquefied propane-butane. Alas, compressed natural gas, methane, is not very popular, primarily due to the undeveloped infrastructure (ZR, 2013, no. 3). But there are enough refueling stations with liquefied gas - you can fearlessly embark on long journeys.

The main reason for switching to gas is financial gain. In the old years, the scale of the economy was breathtaking: sets of gas equipment for primitive carburetor engines were inexpensive, and propane-butane cost half as much as gasoline. Now the situation is different. To make friends with the gas supply system modern engines, a completely different level of components and the qualifications of installers is required. Together with new requirements for cylinder safety, this has led to a significant increase in the cost of the kits.

Each kilometer traveled on gas costs, on average, a third cheaper than on gasoline.

It is still possible to buy two liters of propane-butane at the price of a liter of gasoline, but for the A92 this border has actually been passed. Now the price of gas in Moscow is about 50% of the cost of a liter of 95th. In addition, the engine's appetite for the new fuel will increase by about 15%. So there is no need to talk about a double win in money per kilometer.

Armed with the exact numbers, I figured out the benefits of installing HBO on two editorial machines with an enviable appetite. It turned out that a good-quality set with installation in the capital for "Nissan-Almer" will pay off in just 18 thousand kilometers, and for 12 thousand. This is less than the average annual mileage of most cars. Total: each kilometer traveled on gas will be, on average, one third more profitable than on gasoline.

Tired of the excessive fuel costs for Almera (she eats an average of 10 l / 100 km), we equipped it with HBO, which we reported in the December 2014 issue of Za Rulem magazine. The study of specialized forums did not reveal a uniquely best kit. Therefore, we chose the installer on the recommendation of friends. A set of the Polish company LPGTech with a 42-liter toroidal cylinder cost 25,000 rubles.

Six months later, it is time to check how Almera is handling a new menu for itself - propane-butane. In the course of operation, material has accumulated about the operation of the filling station network. We shared our observations, which can be found below, in the June 2015 issue of the magazine, calling the publication "Is there life on gas?" We add that the gas-fueled "Almera" still serves in the "Za Rulem" vehicle fleet, without causing any particular inconvenience - no new revelations have appeared over the past time.

NISSAN ALMERA

Manufacturer - AVTOVAZ, Russia
Year of issue - 2013
In operation ZR - since April 2013
Mileage at the time of the report - 60,000 km
ZR publications:
2013, № , 8, 12;
2014, № 2, 3, 7, , 12

I'll start with the fact that during this run I stalled a dozen times - by car with automatic transmission... This is not difficult to do. One has only to try to get under way exactly at the moment when the engine, after warming up, switches from gasoline to gas.

On the very first "gas" kilometers he noted that trip computer Almery continues to calculate consumption in liters per kilometers. I rejoiced early: the sensor sharpened for gasoline began to lie shamelessly. The error, according to my observations, is 20–25% downward. The real appetite of the motor (see table) increased by more than 20%. This exceeds the promised 10-15%, but I have reason to doubt the correctness of my calculations based on checks and mileage.

Judge for yourself. The gas level indicator installed in the passenger compartment is not trained for accuracy. Over the course of 120-150 km from the moment of refueling, it shows the maximum level, and over the next 20 km drops to the minimum, at which it remains until the tank is completely empty. Therefore, I made it a rule to reset the odometer directly at the gas station. In urban mode, a 42-liter capacity is enough for 300-315 km.

Each trip to the gas station is also a kind of lottery. With gasoline, everything is clear: pour before the cut-off or until it flows out of the neck. The supply of propane-butane stops at the signal of the pressure sensor, which can work in different ways. I was poured 41, 35, and 23 (!) Liters into an almost empty bottle on different dispensers. Add to this the dubious type of equipment at many stations, which makes you suspect underfilling. So, in such conditions, calculate how much fuel actually remained in the tank and how much you actually poured.

Despite some inconveniences, I like driving on gas. There are no complaints about the equipment of the Polish company LPG TECH. The problem with the defective sensor in the highway was solved in half an hour - under warranty. He did not hold pressure and cut off the fuel supply. As a result, fifteen minutes after starting the HBO was turned off, and the engine automatically switched to gasoline. Propane power was resumed (for the same 15 minutes) only if the engine was completely cooled down. The only thing so far scheduled maintenance the run of 10,000 km cost a modest thousand rubles and took 20 minutes.

There are savings, and they are tangible: the cost of a kilometer of mileage has decreased from 5.71 to 5.03 rubles (despite the fact that Almera drove less than a third of its total mileage taken as the basis for the calculation on cheaper fuel). For this I am ready to endure minor inconveniences.

If you also want to install LPG, I advise you to start by calculating the payback period, and then carefully consider where you will refuel. The rest is secondary.

They have gas ...

Going on a New Year's trip to Germany, my wife and I were determined to save as much as possible on fuel. I infected the Internet with optimism. The successfully found site mylpg.eu turned out to be a treasure: everything gas stations European Union with addresses and coordinates for the navigator!

From 5000 km Almera drove on gasoline about one and a half hundred. The lion's share of them fell on Belarus, where the gas station, which I had hoped for, turned out to be closed, and there was not enough gas until the next remaining gas. In Belarus, gas water heaters on highways are located in a single complex with gasoline ones. True, they are standing in the far corner, and their operators in half of the cases turned out to be ardent advocates of safety: get out of the car, open the hood, step back 20 meters. Not the most pleasant procedure in cold weather. What if a child slept in my car?

In Poland, propane-butane is sold on almost every corner. The prices on local highways and on the Warsaw - Berlin toll road differ: from 2.2 to 2.5 zlotys per liter in the first case and from 2.7 to 3 zlotys in the second (for the duration of the trip, 1 zł = 16 rubles). But there is no discrimination: columns labeled LPG or Autogas (European spelling) peacefully coexist with gasoline ones. There are no refuelers, no bright posters with safety precautions.

On the German autobahns, you can get hold of gas not in all roadside complexes, but in general - no problem. However, there is a nuance. If the Russian adapter (Dish type) is used by both Belarusians and Poles, in Germany it is different (ACME type). A set of adapters is usually available from the cashier. He was not found only at one of about a dozen gas stations where we stopped by. They give out the necessary piece of iron for a reason, they require a deposit - a passport or documents for a car. Cash will do, too. I left 25 to 70 euros as a deposit. If for some reason this option does not suit you, wait for a car with Polish numbers. Such people often drive propane, and the drivers, as I myself have seen, amicably share the adapter without any capitalist conventions. By the way, adapters of four different types are used in Europe.

I calculated the costs at home. It took 556.5 liters of propane for 5000 km (average consumption 11.1 l / 100 km) for a total of 23 195 rubles (at the rate of 70 rubles per euro in effect at that time). Gas in Europe is doubled cheaper than gasoline, but part of the savings is eaten up by the increased appetite of the motor. I suppose that thanks to HBO, up to 20 thousand rubles have been saved in the family budget. One trip to Europe almost completely repaid the cost of installing the kit!

... and we have gas

For the whole of Moscow - about 55 filling stations. A good third is located on the Moscow Ring Road, another part is under reconstruction, after which the preservation of the gas profile is a big question. Having decided to reconnoiter the situation in the neighboring regions, I sketched out the route of the race, capturing both federal highways and regional roads.

On paper, the idea seemed a bit adventurous. The already mentioned site benzin-price.ru reported only 17 gas stations in the entire Ivanovo region (there are 153 gasoline stations, according to the same website), and in the Smolensk region - about a dozen (gasoline - 257). For comparison: almost 250 gas water heaters and 1365 petrol ones were announced in the Moscow region, in the Nizhny Novgorod region - 70 and 532, in the Vladimir region - 48 and 310. The ratio is depressing.

But in reality, everything turned out to be good. The longest section, on which I have not met a single gas station, stretches for 210 km - from Nelidov on the M-9 highway to the entrance to Smolensk. To be fair: on most of it, the 170-kilometer stretch of the P136 road, there was not a single decent gasoline station. Outside the city, one bottle "Almere" is enough for 360-400 km. So if you start looking out for the coveted word "propane" 200 km after the previous refueling, then you probably won't have to switch to gasoline.

Frequent stops take time, but more money remains in your pocket. In addition, on a long journey, it is recommended to stop every two to three hours to warm up. So consider this as an additional contribution of LPG to your safety while driving.

Safety and other aspects of HBO will be discussed below.

A LOT OF MINUSES OF TRANSFERING AUTO TO GAS

Of course, switching to propane-butane is not without its drawbacks. The first one is related to the car warranty. Even upon presentation of all the required documents from the installers (which in itself is a great success), the dealer will most likely refuse free repairs. The second appearance in the car fuel system, whatever one may say, quite a serious interference in the design. Therefore, do not be surprised if, for example, engine malfunctions in an official service will offer you to eliminate at your own expense. And the trial is a long matter with unpredictable results. Therefore, the owners of fresh cars for the most part drop out of the number of potential visitors to gas stations.

An exception is cars equipped with HBO at the car factory itself or in a company authorized by the car manufacturer. We have few such firms, and, as a rule, they specialize in commercial equipment. For example, GAZ, which serially produces gazelles with LPG, both for liquefied and compressed gas fuel.

The second strong argument against is a bulky balloon. It is impossible to place it without sacrificing practicality. The toroidal will displace the spare tire from its rightful place: you will have to transfer it to the trunk or even leave it in the garage. The usual cylindrical capacity will negate the transformation of the luggage compartment. Even sedan owners are unlikely to enjoy it, let alone station wagons and crossovers. However, it all depends on the specific model. For example, the owners of "Logans" of the first generation with a non-folding rear seat have nothing to lose. In addition, to owners of "UAZ-Patriot" and other full-size off-road vehicles, installers offer many options for placing the cylinder: a large cylindrical - not only along rear seat, but also on the side wall, less voluminous - under the bottom, and if toroidal - two on the floor. In the latter case, a flat raised floor is laid over them. True, it is 250 mm higher than the standard level. Although with such a volume of the trunk, this is not much damage.

Another nuance is the availability of gas stations. In the development of the network, gas ones are significantly inferior to gasoline and diesel ones, nevertheless, there are no problems with propane-butane either in large cities or on highways. The all-knowing Internet will help to plan a long-distance route: several resources at once will prompt the coordinates and addresses of the gas station. True, to a car enthusiast, accustomed to modern colorful signs and spoiled by the service of large network gas stations, they will seem, to put it mildly, out of date and even unkempt. There are complaints about the quality of gas on the Internet. However, the situation is no worse than with gasoline and diesel.

... AND A COUPLE OF MYTHS

Most of all concerns are associated with the health of the engine switched to gas. One of the most common arguments is the likelihood of valve seats burnout due to an increase in temperature inside the cylinder. Qualified installers unanimously say: correct and careful adjustment of equipment reduces risk to nothing. And we don't hear massive complaints from users either. Conventional spark plugs are friendly with propane-butane, but if desired, you can replace them

Car on gas influence on the engine. Does gas harm your car? Influence of LPG on internal combustion engines